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Date: Thu Nov 5 13:22:29 1998
Comments: Reading this book has been an absolute pleasure! The photographs brought
to life the culture of the Chachapoya and the region itself! I only wish that I had the
opportunity to see some of these beautiful sites, depicted in your book, myself! Thanks
for sharing your experiences and photography!!!
Date: Mon Nov 16 22:25:10 1998
Name: Mila
Subject: thanks!
Comments: I am so uplifted that you took the time to answer my little letter! I
have a tendency to blither on and on so I really, really, tried to make it concise and
short! That is truly an effort for me to do! Now to receive a letter from you announcing
that I was the very first e-mail to your site? Wonderful for me and I hope uplifting for
you! Disabilities come in many shapes and forms, don't they? It is extremely difficult for
some of us to accept them as a new 'branch' of our lives, to be faced gracefully...to rest
from the battle and resistance to them...to go on from the truth of where we are. Does
this make any sense to you? I tend to write from my heart and not my brain!!!??!!! Your
response quite literally, made my day lighter and has given me much joy! I have not had a
computer prior to this one...in other words...I am a baby nerd and at my age, I believe
that this computer should be very 'user friendly'. Most of the time, windows 95 is very
forgiving but the system became 'Mila UNfriendly' and crashed a couple of weeks ago! A
nasty sight to behold and for 3-4 days, I was in a 'purple funk!' At least it is running
now, the little darling, but I haven't had all of the programs re- installed as yet. Since
I have not learned how to floppy, I lost everything, INCLUDING how to get to your
site...If you have any time, will you please tell me? In no way do I want to make you feel
'obligated', Keith. I had the site bookmarked for easy access prior to 'the crash'.
Medication at times will fog my brain and I must have everything spelled out for me or I
get in trouble, my determination and curiosity at the fore, with sites that most likely
would lead to the FBI most wanted list(s). Be encouraged, Keith! Our paths have crossed
and we travel the same road. What a joy you are and have been to me! I am so thrilled to
have been #1 at something as wonderful as your site and more important to have been able
to touch your life in a positive way.
Date: Wed Nov 18 14:10:18 1998
Name: Alan
Email: abell@time-technology.co.uk
Subject: 12th Century Christians???
Comments: having seen the QED program ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/QED
) the pictures of the small mummies with the faces stitched on looked just like the heads
of the knights of the crusades. I heard the 14th century mentioned, was there any evidence
of activity of the cloud people earlier than the 12th century?
Date: Wed Nov 18 15:12:02 1998
Name: Adam Jones
Email: adam.jones@rocketmail.com
Subject: Chachapoyas
Comments: Having also just seen the BBC QED programme concerning the Chachapoyas,
are you aware of any other ancient texts regarding the existance of light skinned,
beautiful, industrious people in the ancient America's? Also, Have you ever read the Book
of Mormon? You may be rather surprised how many of your questions will be answered! I
think this topic is fascinating and I cn't wait to hear more.....
Date: Thu Nov 19 02:52:25 1998
Name: Colin Hay
Email: colin@ctron.com
Comments: There are many accounts of these peoples from all around the world...I
would start with a book called 'Fingerprints of the Gods' by Graham Hancock. As you will
see, these people are FAR older than previosuly thought. There are many legends of fair
skinned, bearded people coming 'from the West' in boats without oars, bringing
civilisation. One other point - if this was the last surviving outpost of the cloud
people, who mummified them? And where did they go?
Date: Thu Nov 19 06:58:04 1998
Name: Andy
Subject: white with beards
Comments: Are there any similarities between the chachapoyas and the Tokarians of
the Takla makan
Date: Thu Nov 19 14:12:34 1998
Name: grant
Email: ccc@cyborganic.net
Comments: finding it really difficult to locate real up to date information
regarding the study of the mummies and the sites themselves. Whata bout the DNA research?
the embalming fluids? the physiology and anatomy of the mummies (e.g.the fact that ones I
know about have perfect, decay free teeth) deciphering the pictoglyphs? legends about them
re. the chornicles, Inca stories etc..? I want to know more!
Date: Thu Nov 19 14:14:27 1998
Name: grant
Email: ccc@cyborganic.net
Comments: finding it really difficult to locate real up to date information
regarding the study of the mummies and the sites themselves. Whata bout the DNA research?
the embalming fluids? the physiology and anatomy of the mummies (e.g.the fact that ones I
know about have perfect, decay free teeth) deciphering the pictoglyphs? legends about them
re. the chornicles, Inca stories etc..? I want to know more!
Date: Thu Nov 19 22:41:54 1998
Name: soops
Email: mystry@nym.lycaeum.org
Comments: I saw the programme on British tv and am amazed and intrigued. I also
happen to be reading the flem-ath book 'when the sky fell - in search of atlantis' that
suggests that atlantis was located at antartica and was detroyed by a cataclysm about 9600
years ago. This book also suggests that at that time there was a vast global maritime
culture and that survivors of the cataclysm were disbursed around the globe to these
regions closest to Antartica. The book also suggests that those survivors headed for
mountainous regions as the destruction of Atlantis was in fact a deluge. These survivors
took with them the knowledge of agriculture (which apparently existed no where else on
earth at that time) and other knowledge which could possibly explain the architecture of
the chachapoyans... So has anyone else made this link? (the atlanteans may also be the
descendants of the sumerians and ancient egyptians and other races from that middle
eastern region.. and there seems to be a link between the chachapoyans and the middle east
with regards to the pictoglyphs -especially the one that is of a ship- which is how the
Atlanteans are alleged to have dispersed themselves around the planet after the deluge
that destroyed their civilisation! phew! comments / further suggestions please!
Date: Mon Nov 23 03:23:14 1998
Name: boyd peters
Email: boydman@hotmail.com
Subject: Review
Comments: I found this through reading the weekend australia, the national newpaper
in Australia on Sat 21 Nov. Most fascination. It was a good review, with strong emphasis
on the DNA tests which will follow. I wonder what they will tell, if anything. There will
be a lot of angry people out there if it IS found that there was a "white"
influence in the establishment of early american culture. Like modern egyptology there are
a lot of vested interests in ensuring that these people did NOT come from egypt, palestine
or the like regions. Pal you are about to be debunked left right and centre, but don't
give in, seek the truth. there are many cultures we don't have a clue about out there. I
wonder about this one. What will happen if we find a skull and cross-bones on the cave
walls, or heaven forbid, a square and compass. They buried these in the pyramids and tell
us that they were tombs for kings built by slaves without the wheel. They tell us the
people in S.America didn't have the wheel or the horse, and they won't want you showing
them to be small minded vested interest academics. Good luck
Date: Sat Nov 28 11:26:02 1998
Name: Doug Weller
Email: dweller@ramtops.demon.co.uk
Subject: Truth/fiction
Comments: Hi Keith, you really claiming the Chachapoyas are from the Old World? For
those who still have an open mind about Hancock/the Flem-Aths/ Atlantis (and I find a lot
of people who won't accept any criticism of them) take a look at http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk, especially the
links to Paul Heinrich's pages and Catherine Yronwode's article.
Date: Sat Nov 28 14:19:12 1998
Name: Keith Muscutt
Subject: White, blue-eyed, bearded Atlanteans, Martian, etc.
Comments: As the author of Warriors..., I need to make my personal position
clear on some of the issues raised in this forum. Despite speculation, sensationalism, and
flat-out money-grubbing lies, none of the researchers I respect have ever encountered
anything in the Chachapoya area (modern or ancient) which suggests or requires the
intervention of any of the following in the establishment and florescence of the
Chachapoya civilization: Blue-eyed, bearded white men; Egyptians; Phoenicians; Martians;
Atlanteans; Lost tribes of Israelites; Mormons; Irish priests paddling corracles; etc.
Indeed, all the scientific evidence suggests that indigenous, native-American cultures
developed entirely independent of Old World (or interplanetary) contact subsequent to the
initial human immigrations into the Americas. My views on this subject are clearly spelled
out in "Warriors..." for anyone who cares to read them. Personally, I
remain open to the possibility of trans-Pacific and/or trans-Atlantic contact. There is
some circumstantial evidence to that effect which has been presented by reputable
authorities, but nothing which convinces me so far. I find it disappointing that so many
people continue to invoke mysterious, unsubstantiated, and worse yet unsubstantiable,
causes behind the development of ancient American civilizations. In some cases these
opinions seem tinged with a kind of racist assumption that native-Americans do not have
the intellectual skills to develop high levels of culture. Others are simply engaged in
flights of fantasy. Feel free to continue discussing these issues here. However, I hope
some of the contributors will chime in occasionally to challenge irrational or misinformed
claims. Thank you. Your host, Keith Muscutt.
Date: Wed April 8, 08:41:03 1999
Name: Keith Muscutt
Comments: I was disappointed to read the remarks posted by Executive
Secretary Buchanan of the Andean Explorers Foundation & Ocean Sailing Club,
especially since I had just received a brief but gracious letter on Andean Explorers
Foundation & Ocean Sailing Club letterhead from Gene Savoy himself. Savoy's
letter reads as follows: "Congratulations on the recent publication of Warriors
of the Clouds. I enjoyed reading it very much." (The letter is posted on this
site at http://chachapoyas.com/savoy.htm.)
Nevertheless I will respond to a few Executive Secretary Buchanan's comments.
Regarding my accusation of Savoy being "little more than a photojournalist",
the article which Executive Secretary Buchanan cites, reads as follows: "The
pre-eminent explorer of the Chachapoyas region is the North-American photo-journalist
Gene Savoy. Although from a strictly scientific point of view his work is little
more than an interesting digression, Savoy played an important role in publicizing
previous references to the Chachapoyas and reconnoitering Chachapoyas remains
during the 1960s. It was Savoy who, building upon efforts of earlier explorers
(e.g. von Hagen, 1955), attempted to correlate Chachapoyas ruins with Garcilaso
de la Vega's account of the population centers conquered by the Incas as they
invaded the Chachapoyas (Savoy, 1970). By "connecting the dots" of scattered
references, and by graphically illustrating a complex of broadly similar characteristics
observable in ruins spread over a wide geographical area, Savoy helped to define
a coherent focus of investigation for subsequent researchers." I believe this
was a reasonably accurate and quite generous summary of Savoy's work up to the
time it was published, in 1994. I have subsequently, as well as previously,
acknowledged Savoy's contributions, for instance in "Warriors..." (see p. 10).
In "Warriors..." I also contradict others' accusations of Savoy being a looter
(p. 80). Indeed, I made a point of doing so because the accusation is quite
widespread but to the best of my knowledge unfounded and unfair. The bibliography
of "Warriors..." cites, among references to Savoy's own work and the work of
others which refer to him, seventeen newspaper articles written by Savoy which
are illustrated with his photographs. Surely this qualifies Savoy as a photo-journalist,
although "photographer and journalist" might have been more precise. The Christian
Science Monitor also refers to Savoy as a "former journalist" (http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/03/26/feat/feat.2.html).
Regarding my "$50 picture book," I think Executive Secretary Buchanan's language
reveals a lack of objectivity as well as accuracy. "Warriors...." contains several
thousand words of text illustrated by eighty or so colour photographs, along
with many maps, drawings and an extensive bibliography. And it costs only $29.95
in paperback ($59.95 clothbound). Regarding the rhetorical question of what
the book does or does not contribute, I refer Executive Secretary Buchanan to
the opinions of Donnan, Rick and Hemming (on whom the Andean Explorers Foundation
&Ocean Sailing Club has bestowed one of its awards). These are also posted on
this site at http://www.chachapoyas.com/critics.htm.
I certainly agree that readers should visit the web site of Andean Explorers
Foundation & Ocean Sailing Club at www.aefosc.org
as well as other sites such as http://heather.greatbasin.com/~genesavoy/index.html
and http://www.watchman.org/projx.htm
which refer to Savoy's interrelated roles as Commodore, Chancellor and Bishop
of the organizations which he has established to promote his beliefs - The Andean
Explorers Foundation & Ocean Sailing Club, The Jamalian University, and the
The International Community of Christ, respectively. Visitors to those sites
will be able to form their own opinions. I personally disagree with a substantial
amount of the information about the Chachapoya and/or Savoy's achievements and
views relating to them which one can find published on those sites. I believe
much of it is unsubstantiated speculation and that some of it is clearly contradicted
by the historical and archaeological record. But I fully respect the the right
of Savoy to hold and freely express unorthodox opinions. I also support the
right of Executive Secretary Buchanan to believe whatever and whomever he choses,
although I doubt that anyone will take his views very seriously until he can
express them without telling those with whom he disagrees that they "have no
idea." I believe the the truth is usually arrived at, or at least approached,
as the result of an objective, open and civil exchange of information. For that
reason, I challenge Executive Secretary Buchanan to be as willing to allow uncensored
comments about the Andean Explorers Foundation & Ocean Sailing Club's activities
to be posted to its web site as I am willing to allow him to broadcast his comments
on mine. At present that is not possible - which leads one to wonder if the
Andean Explorers Foundation & Ocean Sailing Club supports open discussion of
its extraordinary claims about the Chachapoya and is able to defend them in
a public forum.
Date: Thu Apr 22 23:15:56 1999